Curse

Gun Pierson · Dec 24, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Try do Foundry of Failed Creations in HM with Heroes (if works post the build

).

I can give you the builds for NM without cons, but I cant do HM with heroes that's why I go 600/smite/famine then. You see, the circle is complete

Foundry is one of the hardest places in the game, mainly because you have to be lucky with the spaws and the rooms limit your movement for tactical setup. Even the all powerfull ursan teams with 3 HB monks got smashed in room 3 if the spaws were bad. So foundry is clearly the extreme exception at the other end of the spectrum.

Kaleban · Dec 24, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

If I wasn't so lazy, I would go dig up all your posts complaining about how an SF nerf would cause the exclusion of certain classes. Looks like you're actually perfectly fine with class-discrimination, as long as it doesn't affect your pet class.

LOL! Well first you missed the point. My calling for haters to roll a Sin was meant to expose the hypocrisy of the dominant side, i.e. the War/Ele/Mo group. You're always going to have some builds be stronger than others, if the only solution by those IN power is to conform to their wishes, then the Meta would never change.

Hence WHY I am not against a Shadowform nerf, which if you hadn't quoted my posts out of context to make your point would show quite clearly. I have said in MANY posts that I wouldn't mind a nerf if done for the right reason, and with compensating buffs or area changes that would make the whole need for Meta builds anachronistic in the first place!

But I guess that doesn't fit into your tiny world view, does it?

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SF is going to be nerfed. How are you winning the argument?

Winning the argument on this forum and having ANet carry through on their nerf batting are two separate things. Even if every single person on this forum somehow reached agreement with one side or the other, it would have no real bearing on what ANet plans to do or does. I and others can totally dominate the argument with logic and reason (as we have) but that doesn't mean it will change anything.

So yes, I realize the futility of arguing on the Internet, but I can't stand hypocrites and people who shout off their mouths when they have no idea what they're talking about. Funny really.

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A hypocrite calling another a hypocrite is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Especially when you quote out of context to make an incorrect argument true. Which invalidates it altogether. I am too lazy to go back over 20+ pages of posts in multiple threads just to prove to one person they're wrong, especially when this forum has proved that even when someone IS proven to be wrong, massive hordes of sycophants will swarm to their cause anyways, based on preconceived ntions and opinions with no basis n fact.

I suppose in trying to prove me wrong, you of course missed the whole issue at hand, that of the game world being out of whack which allows powerful builds to arise.

If the areas were re-designed with randomization, or at least mob variants (placement, size and composition, possibly three or four different skillsets, etc.) it wouldn't MATTER if each class had invincibuilds because they'd be lucky at best to get an area spawn that couldn't defeat a one-trick pony build.
My oher assertion is that the unused classes should be buffed up to Meta-level, rather than nerfing Meta-level classes back to the unused bin. If any of you had more than the memory of a puppy, you'd remember the class discrimination against Sins everywhere due to their poor design, much like the reputation that Dervishes and Mesmers have in PvE.

This game and GW2 will suffer if the prevailing idea of the community and ANet is to only have a few core classes be used everywhere, if that's the case, why even make all that other content?

Zahr Dalsk · Dec 24, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

For skillfull players, it doesn't matter if you nerf as they will still get 10 times as much gold as a 'normal' player, the only thing you take away is part of the fun.

It's fine if skillful players get 10 times as much gold as normal players; what we're talking about here is stopping speed clear players from getting 10 times as much gold as normal players, because a speed clear, in the sense of Shadow Form assassins (rather than, say, a good team that plays through quickly) does not involve skill.

Gun Pierson · Dec 24, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

It's fine if skillful players get 10 times as much gold as normal players; what we're talking about here is stopping speed clear players from getting 10 times as much gold as normal players, because a speed clear, in the sense of Shadow Form assassins (rather than, say, a good team that plays through quickly) does not involve skill.

That's funny because I find it takes way less skill to just play your role in a team of 8 than to play 600 in UW or Foundry HM.

Also, stopping speed clears can be done in several ways. Nerfing skills is the easy way out with lots of collateral damage as side effect.

Ugh · Dec 24, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

LOL! Well first you missed the point. My calling for haters to roll a Sin was meant to expose the hypocrisy of the dominant side, i.e. the War/Ele/Mo group. You're always going to have some builds be stronger than others, if the only solution by those IN power is to conform to their wishes, then the Meta would never change.

...

Especially when you quote out of context to make an incorrect argument true. Which invalidates it altogether.

Okay, if this:

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EVERYONE has access to the same characters classes and skills as everyone else, so technically speaking the gameplay experience IS balanced for all players, since EVERYONE can take part in the Meta of the Month.

wasn't meant to be taken seriously, I apologize. But, it was a misread, not me intentionally taking you out of context.

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If the areas were re-designed with randomization, or at least mob variants (placement, size and composition, possibly three or four different skillsets, etc.) it wouldn't MATTER if each class had invincibuilds because they'd be lucky at best to get an area spawn that couldn't defeat a one-trick pony build.

That would be great if Anet had the ability to implement it. Fingers crossed for this in GW2.

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My oher assertion is that the unused classes should be buffed up to Meta-level, rather than nerfing Meta-level classes back to the unused bin.

If every class was as horribly balanced as assassins, the game would be in an even worse state than it already is. And, if meta-level classes are nerfed to the level of non-meta classes, all classes are on a level playing field and balancedway sees a comeback (if done correctly). A worse fix than the randomization of mobs, but this is actually within Anet's reach.

Quote:

If any of you had more than the memory of a puppy, you'd remember the class discrimination against Sins everywhere due to their poor design

That was before PvE skills like Critical Agility, which negates the biggest downside of a sin and is found on the bar of any non-perma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

That's funny because I find it takes way less skill to just play your role in a team of 8 than to play 600 in UW or Foundry HM.

Playing in an 8-man team in Foundry is harder than 600ing foundry. Why do you think people give up on 8-man teams and pay for runs instead?

R_Frost · Dec 24, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I can give you the builds for NM without cons, but I cant do HM with heroes that's why I go 600/smite/famine then. You see, the circle is complete

Foundry is one of the hardest places in the game, mainly because you have to be lucky with the spaws and the rooms limit your movement for tactical setup. Even the all powerfull ursan teams with 3 HB monks got smashed in room 3 if the spaws were bad. So foundry is clearly the extreme exception at the other end of the spectrum.

DoA as a whole is one of the hardest because Anet failed in the design. over powered unbalanced mobs ment gimic builds to beat it. until Ursan, if you werent a monk,warrior,ele or necro you may as well not even entered the area and even then if you were one of those, it you werent willing to run a specific build the you couldnt get in a party. Anet created the need to run perma SF or the 600/smite due to the poor makeup of the enemy mobs. short of a complete redesign of the mob makeup in most areas there will always be a need for a gimic build to beat the harder areas.

toocooltang · Dec 24, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

DoA as a whole is one of the hardest because Anet failed in the design. over powered unbalanced mobs ment gimic builds to beat it. until Ursan, if you werent a monk,warrior,ele or necro you may as well not even entered the area and even then if you were one of those, it you werent willing to run a specific build the you couldnt get in a party. Anet created the need to run perma SF or the 600/smite due to the poor makeup of the enemy mobs. short of a complete redesign of the mob makeup in most areas there will always be a need for a gimic build to beat the harder areas.

Lies. Doa can be done balanced, you certainly need to abuse cons and PVE skills but it can be done. I even got a screen shot to prove it, of course it took a while but it was our first time. Is it really that hard to think outside of the box?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3184/doahmheroes.jpg

Gun Pierson · Dec 24, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Playing in an 8-man team in Foundry is harder than 600ing foundry. Why do you think people give up on 8-man teams and pay for runs instead?

Why do you think Ursan was popular? because pug players and solo adventurers could get in. Now they need to pay a runner.

A good guild team can still steamroll the place as before. If you've ever taken part in such a team, you know that it takes less skill/effort for the individual, because the sum of experience and skill by all players in the team outnumbers a pug by a hundred times sorta speak. They're that good that it takes less effort and energy for me to play in such a team as HB/UA monk versus when I play 600 foundry.

Trip555 · Dec 24, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I can give you the builds for NM without cons,

Give me a PM or post it public and link it, I really need it and some other people I know too.

As we all know DoA iis extremely empty (apart form some farmers or traders) and with exception of the City pretty hard.
After the 600/Perma nerf maybe there will be more pressure on ANet to rebalance DoA and especially Foundry.

Simath · Dec 24, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Why do you think Ursan was popular? because bad players and shitters could get in. Now they use SF.

I took the liberty to fix your statement for you.

YunSooJin · Dec 24, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Why do you think Ursan was popular? because pug players and solo adventurers could get in. Now they need to pay a runner.

A good guild team can still steamroll the place as before. If you've ever taken part in such a team, you know that it takes less skill/effort for the individual, because the sum of experience and skill by all players in the team outnumbers a pug by a hundred times sorta speak. They're that good that it takes less effort and energy for me to play in such a team as HB/UA monk versus when I play 600 foundry.

yes.. a good guild team means they probably have moar skillz?.. duh?

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

DoA as a whole is one of the hardest because Anet failed in the design. over powered unbalanced mobs ment gimic builds to beat it. until Ursan, if you werent a monk,warrior,ele or necro you may as well not even entered the area and even then if you were one of those, it you werent willing to run a specific build the you couldnt get in a party. Anet created the need to run perma SF or the 600/smite due to the poor makeup of the enemy mobs. short of a complete redesign of the mob makeup in most areas there will always be a need for a gimic build to beat the harder areas.

I could spend half an hour looking through hundreds of screenshots to find some proof that I ran a balanced with Glob of Ectospasm and completed all 4 areas of DoA (not Mallyx - we were tired and it was late) with consumables and NO WIPEOUTS.

Bryant Again · Dec 24, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I'm sorry Black that it needs to come to this as we were side by side argumenting for 7 heroes for like months. But to be fair you can also replace ''600/smite'' with ''7 heroes'' there, even 2 players with 3 heroes each.

The difference being that was what the area was designed to be completed by: a full team of combatants. It being easy is a different and bigger problem in itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

For PvE to become challenged again, it needs a massive overhaul, which will not happen as they don't have the recources and GW2 is on the way. So no point in screwing around with the player base in the game's final phase.

While I find it unlikely as well (but feel that every step taken towards it is a good one) it's at least interesting seeing ANet discuss changing these things regardless. It could be to prepare players what to expect for GW2, hopefully meaning to not expect such broken ways to play the game.

TalanRoarer · Dec 24, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Lies. Doa can be done balanced, you certainly need to abuse cons and PVE skills but it can be done. I even got a screen shot to prove it, of course it took a while but it was our first time. Is it really that hard to think outside of the box?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3184/doahmheroes.jpg

Agreed. IF you know the place and enemies well, it can be done in HM, with a fairly balanced team.

Still prefer physway though

.

Mercesa · Dec 24, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleikki

Yes and in 2005-2006 it took 4hours to clear fow with exprienced team. and there was no end chest to go for..

I think SF needs nerf

Yeah and It takes like a hour aswell now with a regular pug so who cares ?

R_Frost · Dec 25, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Lies. Doa can be done balanced, you certainly need to abuse cons and PVE skills but it can be done. I even got a screen shot to prove it, of course it took a while but it was our first time. Is it really that hard to think outside of the box?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3184/doahmheroes.jpg

thats my point, do it balanced, no comsumables and no PvE skills. before consumables and PvE skills, how many people can say they did it balanced. all i remember was u needed to be a W/E tank or an Ele to tank. for an so called elite area, those things shouldnt be needed to complete it if designed right.

UnChosen · Dec 25, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

thats my point, do it balanced, no comsumables and no PvE skills. before consumables and PvE skills, how many people can say they did it balanced. all i remember was u needed to be a W/E tank or an Ele to tank. for an so called elite area, those things shouldnt be needed to complete it if designed right.

Also...when did Tank N' Spank become balanced. Maybe I am far off track...but judging by that screenshot, there is a tank(W/P), the Mo/Me is probably a bonder, the two Rt/Mo are probably healer/SoS hybrids, and the para is SY!....and the rest are probably a mish mash of characters with DPS skills.

IMO that is NOT "balanced" (Yeah, I know that the definition isn't clear), it is still unavoidable to have a tank (hey why don't you switch the W/P with a non-shadowform assassin or dervish?), and a stack of prot/heal. Just because you have a random assortment of classes for the rest doesn't really make it balanced, because in pugs and less casual guilds that R/W, Me/E, and N/Me would be replaced by the single best DPS option.

But hey...if I totally guessed your team build wrong, feel free to clarify. ("Balanced" can't be that extraordinary that you must hide all skills can it?)

Tearz1993 · Dec 25, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

glass arrowzzzzzzzz

Margal · Dec 25, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

well well what a great thng.... MANY PLAYERS WILL LEAVE GW AFTER SF NERFED!
WHY ? WHAT S THE REASON ? IN THIS YEARS YOU HAD NERFED ALL YOU COULD...AND THIS IS REALLY BORING, WE RE TIRED. BYE BYE ANET

isildorbiafra · Dec 25, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margal

well well what a great thng.... MANY PLAYERS WILL LEAVE GW AFTER SF NERFED!
WHY ? WHAT S THE REASON ? IN THIS YEARS YOU HAD NERFED ALL YOU COULD...AND THIS IS REALLY BORING, WE RE TIRED. BYE BYE ANET

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